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Author Topic:  Reflection nerfs  (Read 289 times)

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_people_

« on: 26, March 2023, 18:51:15 »
Yesterday I had almost finished with changing reflection before shifting over to party play.

As proof of concept, I have set the following rules:

  • Non-sentient objects (walls, doors, etc.) with "can_reflect_*" will always reflect spells. Non-sentient objects without reflection will only reflect lightning.
  • Monsters have a 60% chance of reflecting, if they have "can_reflect_*" set.
  • Players have a +20% chance to reflect per item they have equipped with "can_reflect_*".
  • Multiple reflective objects on the same tile stack, so a player with 20% reflect standing atop a player with 80% reflect will result in 100% reflection on that tile.
  • Walking into a spell/missile with 100% reflect will still result in taking damage, the same as currently.

These numbers (and the system as a whole) are subject to change - please post any feedback here.
-- _people_ :)

Shroud

« Reply #1 on: 26, March 2023, 22:00:56 »
Well first of all if that is the way reflect works it would probably be good for items to be renamed to something like reflect spells chance + 20%. I also hope it's qua independent as otherwise items get a further 15-20% hit in most cases.

I think very few players have 5 yet alone 2 reflect spells items so it will come as a shock to the system with all the increased spell dmg. Just off the top of my head for all the sources of reflect I believe I can come up with 4 being reflect amulet, Killrin Warrior Armour, Lich Gauntlets and Killrin Priest Shield. Having said that it's intended as a nerf ;)

Practically I think this change would benefit mobs a lot more than players. That's cause very few mobs have reflect spells and most of the ones that do can be counted upon to walk into a spell. Of course if players not work in groups then difficulty can be increased although I suspect that spellcasters will get a lot more terrifying.

The alternative implementation that can also be considered is that if a spell of 100 dmg hits a person with 40% reflect spells you could also have it so 60 dmg is absorbed as a hit from the spell and new spell of 40 dmg is reflect out from the user hit.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

miopol

« Reply #2 on: 30, March 2023, 16:39:52 »
The strongest and most common interaction on spellcaster mobs and the reflect happens when you are low level at the SG cemetery, at mid levels in DT and at high levels in GT and The Pit in MV, all the other situations in most times won't be heavily affected, now these changes will affect most negatively the low levels as getting hit from a magic bullet or projectiles can mean insta kill, at mid levels it can be a little harsh on farming (mostly in DT) and on high levels the ammount of projectiles are quite few since the screen will almost be full of storms, overall affecting mostly low level to mid gameplay IMO.

Now the variation on the reflect percentage on mobs helps most the priests and low level mages since they can just switch to storms, priests can switch to Hallowed Ground but I believe this spell requires lvl 90 and by that point you could be considered high level, it's an improvement nonetheless, I personally appreciate the change as it will improve the low level player playthrough.

About the reflect spells 20% per stack, I would consider getting it at least to 50% percent considering the low level players as it can turn fatal in most times, but the subsequent instances shouldn't be added through a direct sum of them, I would make it somewhat exponential so it never becomes 100% and trivializes gameplay, I would go like this:
1. 50%
2. 70%
3. 80%
4. 85%
5. 88%
6 and on. 90%

Dolfo

« Reply #3 on: 30, March 2023, 17:10:36 »
I like the idea of reflect spells to be more a constant logic, instead of this random russion roulette. As Shroud said and as i said somewhere in forum in last year  :P , a % reflect should not be the % reflect chance, instead it could be the % damage reflected 100%. This would make this logic a trustful logic, you can build on. If you have 1 reflect piece, you know you reflect x percent for sure. This is also very helpfully on unfair monster spawns. Mostly a combination of an unfair monster spawn and a reflect fail is very often dead to players.

And adding the reflect percents of different items, should be equivalent logic like we add other resists or like miopol said. So it should be a little harder to reach 90% or more resists.
« Last Edit: 30, March 2023, 17:12:16 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. Man in White don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of your life. You are not the patient, you are their customer. Never forget this!

Shroud

« Reply #4 on: 30, March 2023, 17:28:44 »
Just as far as how reflect works it's current a flag where it's either set on or off on an item. So without a major rework of reflect it's not possible to have varying levels of reflect on items. Having said that miopol's suggestion of variable effects of stacks isn't hard to implement so should be doable.

It was mentioned that in future enchanting items could be possible with reflect being one of them. As an interesting thought would another good stat to have be something like spell penetration (probably needs a better name!) that would have the effect of removing a reflect stack.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

petarkiller

« Reply #5 on: 31, March 2023, 00:58:09 »
I think that 20% per item is fine considering that you will be able to enchant gear and possibly more items will have reflect on them but this all needs testing for us to be able to give accurate feedback.

I think that it should still work as before but if you have 40% reflect (2 items) the roll happens and you either reflect spell or you don't but only take 60% of the damage.
Considering this is supposed to be a nerf, reflect should be rare on end game items if this is implemented because it will be much more important and players don't need to be able to get to 100% if they don't take as much damage.

While it can be assigned to items that have lower stats or don't have other bonuses so that low level players can have access to reflection.

When it comes to end game players, reflect enchant/imbuement should be rare if it is this powerful but as I don't know much about dungeons, i can't really go in depth about this.
« Last Edit: 31, March 2023, 01:30:08 by petarkiller »

_people_

« Reply #6 on: 31, March 2023, 01:55:15 »
Some good points brought up here.

I'm definitely concerned about low-level players - mob spells are very deadly at low levels, even after the small nerf added a year ago. I like the idea of reflection being a damage reduction source for this reason, although in this case I think reflect items are pretty rare for LLP's (assuming they didn't get a free ammy from another player). Perhaps one or two sources of easy-to-acquire reflect items for LLP's would be in order.

If reflect evolves into a form of damage reduction, I think either imposing a cap or introducing a "spell penetration" like Shroud suggests would be in order. Players ignoring spells is probably a bad spot for the game to be in. I think Chroma's solution here may be ideal - essentially replicating how resists currently work, such that it's impossible to achieve immunity unless you have an item with 100% resistance.
-- _people_ :)

Shroud

« Reply #7 on: 31, March 2023, 18:02:02 »
If you want to make game easier at low levels I would imagine that a shop stocking the following would probably be a massive help:
dam+1 rings
reflect amulet
equipment of inferior/lesser health (i.e. has hp+).
level 1 rod of magic bullet

Basically the general concept of the above is that they can get reflect, bulk up their HP, deal better dmg with melee and also can start training MD. These are all far from endgame tier so no high level player is likely to use them (apart from maybe the rod) but would make game a lot easier for noobs. You could also have it as quest rewards as Cashin Helm and Karamor's boots are underwhelming. Just to put it into perspective when I helped Lewis-half-elf he has 84 HP and was lvl 12 but a lvl 10 req belt of lesser health gives HP+30 so you can see how life changing a couple of these items would be to a low level player.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

miopol

« Reply #8 on: 31, March 2023, 18:38:29 »
Probably at low levels if you include more reflect items the game will be an either you wear them or you die, taking away player agency.

Enchanting will help mostly high level players with currency to enchant, considering low level players I would add spell reduction as another stat altogether and included in gear, maybe connected to Spell Failure?, it's expected if you go as a bulk of armor a firebolt is gonna hurt, but if your gear has magic properties imbued they should protect against magic (just an idea).

The idea (I think) is to make player decisions important, and have variety in the gameplay.

_people_

« Reply #9 on: 08, November 2023, 03:58:56 »
After some thought, I've decided replacing reflection with an entirely new stat is probably the best bet for long-term balance.

I have implemented "missile deflection" and "castable deflection". These stats scale up similar to resistances - if a player has two 50% castable deflection items, their total deflection will be 75% (this differs from resistance in that it is not scaled by qua/con). The projectile will thus deal 25% of its base damage to the player, and the remaining 75% will be deflected.

Deflected spells and missiles are redirected randomly from the deflection source in any direction except back towards the caster, and straight through the victim. The projectile will still "belong to" the caster/shooter, so player allies are still in danger but still benefit from the damage reduction of the first player (and their own).

Deflection is available for both players and mobs. Reflection in its current state still exists, but will be reserved for map objects (but without chance to fail). I'll run a bulk find/replace on existing items, but that'll probably have to be 1 uniform value across all legacy items with reflect.

I think I'll be replacing reflect rolls on ammies with a few tiers of deflection. I'll also look at amulet of shielding drop rates.
-- _people_ :)

_people_

« Reply #10 on: 08, November 2023, 05:35:27 »
I have replaced reflection on amulets with deflection, which is calculated by: RANDOM_ROLL(10, level / 3)

This means mobs level 1 through 32 can drop 10% deflection, and at 33 and above will drop randomly between 10% and (level / 3)% for a maximum of 42% (mobs can be up to level 127). Additionally, low and minor shielding amulets have both castable and missile deflection and the camp drop rate for low shielding amulets has been increased.

Cloaks, bracers, and shields can also drop with up to 28% deflection.
-- _people_ :)

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