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Author Topic:  Condition and Quality  (Read 119 times)

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Dolfo

« on: 22, October 2022, 12:35:40 »
I am "now" at the state where i can describe condition very good.

Condition of an item mainly say this : "This is now x% of this item."

This means also x% resists, x% damage.

But it should also mean x% weight! And x% material!

To repair condition we need the correct material for it. So we could use material instead of nuggets to repair items on an amboss. Smithys in town also needs material, but this could be included in repair costs. So in future repair costs could depend not on value, instead it could depend on materials and amount of material.

Better the material of your gear, more you must pay for a condition repair.

Theoretically it could also be possible to allow different materials, when they are in same group, like repairing a stone leather item, with gargolye leather.

If we can change the real_material system to allow multiply materials, this could be interesting.

But this leads also to a more complex logic here. To make it not to complex, we can try to break it down to  quality value again.

Based on this different materials, quality is a calculated value from there and can no longer reforged by a number only logic, instead to reforge an item you need the better material. So if you use a weapon and break the condition down, then when you repair it with better materials, this will increase the quality. And when you repair it with worse material it will lower the quality.

So theoretically smithy can say, repair with same material or repair with a special material and this can lead to different repair costs.  :o
« Last Edit: 22, October 2022, 12:41:14 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Dolfo

« Reply #1 on: 20, November 2022, 07:20:04 »
I have changed the default condition 100 on loot to RANDOM_ROLL(0, 100).

Looks funny to find broken gear, but also strange, if you find a 50% condition tomato. Who has eaten half of the tomato? So a random chance on generated treasures is more realistic. Finding broken gear down in dungeons is fun.

I was also thinking on doing the same with quality. But i still have problems with our dual quality definitions.

Quality alone is a clean logic.
Material alone is a clean logic.
Quality value in relation to material is a clean logic, it's mainly you have a factor to work with.

But reforging iron material to same quality than steel material is unlogic. Quality is material and if we say, we change quality but not the material definition, we break the logic.

I also come to the view, that quality is perfect to use to calculate for a kind of breakfactor.

But i still have problems with our reforging logic in relation to our material. If you have normal leather and replace it with better leather material, this should lead to a better quality.

Realistically you need a kind of material inventar for an object. But this leads also to another logic for repairing stuff.

So if we say our item is 50% broken, material is leather
-> then we have condition 50, quality 40

Now we go to a smith (leatherworker) and ask him to repair this item with better leather material (lets take the best 85)
->smith sees, we need 50% material to repair the condition
-> condition goes to 100%
->50 % of the quality 85 material is put in the material inventar of this item.
This brings the quality to 77,5.

This means both values, condition and quality are no more direct values, instead these values are calculated from this material inventory.

And repairing means the same than reforging, we fill the lost condition with a specific material.

Where one solution is, player can bring this material to smith
and another solution is, player can buy this from smithy. This is mostly a money related repair.

So a repair/reforge can looks like this

Repair with iron
Repair with forged iron
...
« Last Edit: 20, November 2022, 19:26:39 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Dolfo

« Reply #2 on: 20, November 2022, 17:58:58 »
What we do on sunday, when we don't want to mess with all this old code? We write own logical mess.  :P

Here is my prototyp. I have written this theoretically and only brought it to a working compiler stage. So this is not implemented and tested. This idea must be also limited to non stackable items. If not, i think our current merge logic get some problems.

It's mostly as i said above. Here are some examples.

A player get his 100% con 40% quali weapon from fanrir or buy this in shop.
He goes down, fighting like a berserk with ants, make money, reducing the condition of his sword.
He goes to smithy.
Smithy says:
"Yeah no problem, i can repair your sword. Here, choose the material, you want to repair it with."
Player has only a few coppers, so he repairs this starter sword first with iron. That's the cheapest repair.
Player goes back, fighting more ants.
Suddenly he find a meteoric steel sword condition 50% quality 82.
Player is thinking "Wow, lets go back to smithy"
Smithy smiles, "What a nice sword" (and thinking) "Wow, this is nice money for me, if i repair this in this quality."
Player: "Can you repair this with iron? I have not that money and this is more a beginner sword for me!"
Smithy stops smiling, but he is a pro and so he will do this job and make this meteoric sword less in quality.
He grap material (iron quality 40) in relation to 50% condition and repairs the sword, this decreases the quality to 62(62,5).
Now our player has a better sword and starts to kill rats, making more money and suddenly he find an early unbalanced item value, selling this for several golds  :P, going to smithy, graping an old shitty 8% condition iron sword from his loot and asking the smith.
"Can you repair this in meteoric steel? I have the money for it."
Smithy smiles, reforging this to (92% meteoric steel / 8% iron) to a nice quality of around 81.
And player smiles and thinking, "Now lets kill this hobgoblin boss with this holy piece of metal."

So to finish the story: To get the best quality in 100% of this material, you need to find it and you need always repair it with this best material. So it's also a lot of economic for player, do they use a cheaper sword for their training and when they use their best swords?

https://github.com/Kamor/Dolfo/blob/main/ideas/material_system
« Last Edit: 20, November 2022, 19:31:07 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #3 on: 20, November 2022, 19:53:13 »
Having looked at it I don't think using materials to repair would ever be a good idea since cost isn't that great while results are far superior. If repair costs were 10x to 100x greater than now maybe it would force people to change. You've also got issue that acquiring materials might well be equivalent to the cost of a proper repair

I think it could also lead to exploits where you can get a 40 qua item, lower it's condition to 1 and then use meteoric steel ti get it to just over 84 qua that could be cheaper than reforging. There is also an issue of rounding since if I had a 99% meteoric steel 1% iron weapon and lowered it to 49 con and then repaired it again then it would be over 99.5% meteoric steel that could be 100% after rounding.

As a system goes it could work, although when players can freely use a small amount of money it seems to add a lot of complexity for a system no one would work. Personally only scenario I could see myself using it is either if it's a lot cheaper than money (e.g. 1 con exploit I described) or if repairs with money was removed.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #4 on: 20, November 2022, 20:13:17 »
Sure material should have a higher impact on repairing costs. It's like a second tier list for materials.

Sure thinking of exploiting. Currently we can do this reforging a con 40 iron to con 85, so this is nearly same. We could also go for a reforge logic, where players can say, can you "clean my sword and remove this 1% iron and replace it with meteoric steel. Of course this is normaly not realistic, but as i said above, current reforge system does the same.

This is not much complexity. It also can be connected very fast with our amboss system. Theoretically we can also allow to reforge with copper, silver, gold, mith materials.

As is said above the costs must be adjusted, material must have a much higher impact on prices and repair costs.

This means early player must think twice to use best material gear. Also this is way to the smithery skill, where players can start to repair/reforge their gear with material for their own. This opens a new profession. The player smith. This can also open crafting items from the scratch with only material, the blooprint and the char skill to do this.

Dunno what you mean here?
"to add a lot of complexity for a system no one would work."
I have spend some hours to write it theoretically and can continue to push this system?

And for players, it looks very easy to understand. It's also no problem to change the examine logic like:

"this is your meteoric steel, iron, black iron, forged iron sword"

I mostly build it compatible to current system, adjusting current condition, quality values, so we need only go in the places where we create or change item_condition/item_material/quality.
« Last Edit: 20, November 2022, 20:17:06 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #5 on: 20, November 2022, 21:29:31 »
Dunno what you mean here?
"to add a lot of complexity for a system no one would work."
work should be use

As far as reforge logic goes currently cost increases rises in increments of 10 so increase in cost isn't static. So depending on the implementation you might literally need tons of a certain material and in that case you might not even be able to carry it all. Depending on how materials are procured players might be unable to obtain enough of it and if a shop sells it then it's equivalent to using money with an extra step.

I can definitely see the potential with something like crafting and blueprints. I can even see the possibility of a quest where the blacksmith has run out of iron and asks you to deliver some. It's just repairing where I'm a bit skeptical as I've got used to clicking repair all and having money deducted rather then worrying about the material type of each of my damaged equipment knowing that if I don't have enough my equipment could be permanently damaged. When a simple automatic solution works a manual one that can go wrong isn't really worth using.

I'd say that possibly a better place to use the logic is in upgrading equipment. What I'm thinking is that if enchantments can also be carried over then it becomes a lot more useful. For example if you had +1 meteoric steel then when reforging there is a chance to add +1 to the final item. In the same way meteoric steel of str might have a chance to boost str by 1 assuming no other stat exists on the item. So that means that if you have enough materials and a good weapon you could eventually reforge it into a + 5 of superior damage weapon. It could be that the higher the boost the lower the success rate so for example let's say +0 to +1 is 100%, +1 to +2 is 80%, +2 to +3 is 64% etc (i.e. 80% of previous success rate)
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #6 on: 20, November 2022, 22:18:42 »
Work should be used? Yeah, i have the same feeling at the moment and ask me, why i do this?

Of course changing such mechanics need a rebalance. You can't argue, this future don't work, because we have this past.

And of course you need a click protection, if a player clicks repair meteoric steel sword with iron. You can make smithy ask you "Sure you want to do this." Or making default repair always using same quality? You can also destroy your item, when playing drunken, somehow managed to unlock an item and drop this in shop. In past we had also this quality destroy mechanic on low conditon gear, people removed after some discussing.

Don't like random on crafting, this leads to players forced to craft again and again, till they are lucky. Such lucky mechanics are better for gambling logics.

And sure repairing and reforging with different materials can lead also to upgrading items. It could also go more to a one container only mechanic, where you put in all item enchantments, buffs, materials in there.

Luckyly i have a local server, where i can do everything what i want.  :P
« Last Edit: 20, November 2022, 23:51:03 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Dolfo

« Reply #7 on: 27, November 2022, 20:46:01 »
Oh yeah, it was like i said month ago.  :P I removed quality from the damage and resists calculations. Instead i use quality against the damage roll.

Currently i use the fixed 2% chance+x for acid+x for magic weapons against the quality, so this is not how i will look at the end.

But so far removing quality from damage and resists brought back the early game. The originally idea of using quality for the max condition was not the best and with the change to lower quality ranges this idea becomes more worse, also with the split to 100% condition. So the 100% condition was a good step. Still keeping to try to save to original idea of percent quality not.

Without this quality adjustments beginner gear is again nice to wear and weapons inflict good early game damage. Of course all weapons have now 100%. Only condition reduces the damage and resists. This increases the late game damage, but late game resists are mostly the same, in relation to 100 quali late game armours, like Kaotm.

The focus is back to find better weapons and not to find better quality gear first. Quality still influence damage and resists, but on a different way.

More you fight, faster the condition goes down on lower quality items. So theoreticaly if you fight with a ceremonial glass sword, one hit on this item could be enough to break it.

Quality should also show a difference between a player wearing a robe and a player wearing a platemail.

Next is i will try to roll the real damage against quality to get the item damage value. So in early game, it's enough to wear low quality gear to fight against ants, but reaching more and more higher areas, players should better look for better quality gear. If not their garbage gear will break very fast. This is how armour should work. Fighters should have always the best armours against item_damages. Mages have more problems, wearing cloth gear, but they are tricky using magic robes or mithril gear and don't speak about late game armours like Kaotm. Also they normaly avoid to fight close.

Edit: i have tried this now.

Rolling a RANDOM%damage against RANDOM%10*Quality. So in early game low quality gear is enough to withstand enemy hits, but for late game you need more and more better quality gear. Thinking of damages around 1k, we need also quality around 1k. Currently i don't want to touch qualities over 100, so i used the *10 modificator. I know we have more damage than 1k in lategame, so this must be adjusted. It's mostly eperimental. But next steps could be, reducing clothes quality, improving metal quality. Currently out best materials like mithril have quality 100, but i think good metal gear should be closer there.

And if you ask, why i changed this, old code has a TODO in there, has a bug in there and has some hardcoded unlogics in there.  :o
« Last Edit: 28, November 2022, 08:21:21 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. Your body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

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