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Author Topic:  Required Level experience  (Read 121 times)

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Dolfo

« on: 22, November 2021, 23:01:31 »
I made it from Level 13 Mage to Level 14 Mage in 1-2 hours? Don't know the precisely time. I also forgot a lot of this game. So first i was forced to find the places where i can kill monsters without the monsters killing me. Can't believe that i have done this in past? Have you changed level system from hard to harder? This way you will never find new players reaching end content. And all the old players have beards and grey hairs now, and don't do this "shit" again. ;-)
Also i tried 3 times a new char, 2 times i died because quests tempt me do go deeper in dangerous maps. There are player outside, who like this hardcore thing. If they die, they restart or stop playing. :-)
Or the motivation to play this game goes more and more down with each dead. Anyway your time to level chars is forever, but our lifes not. ;-)
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

_people_

« Reply #1 on: 23, November 2021, 23:55:15 »
Leveling hasn't been changed in over a decade (2010 at the latest, possibly even earlier).

What specific suggestion do you have? Do you want the progression curve adjusted? More leveling areas?
-- _people_ :)

Dolfo

« Reply #2 on: 24, November 2021, 01:47:53 »
Make leveling faster. Players need success in game. Levelup is such a thing. Times changed. In past i thought this is cool. Hard working for a level. I remember i needed 2 days lots of hours to go 100? Why?

Alone if you think of such a curve like this: Kill 1 Level 1 monster to reach Level 1, 2 Level 2 monsters for Level 2, ... 10 Level 10 Monsters to reach Level 10 this goes to an insane kill 110 Level 110 Monsters to Reach Level 110.

In past it was fine, but honestly i am no more the man to level 2 days for one level. You also have multiply skills to level, this is insane.

This is ok when you reach endgame status, but for beta go faster in level, for saison servers go more faster in level and for test servers go fastest in levels.

...

Yeah and new players need some more help to find areas to level. But step by step. First let's think about level curve. Think of normal players playing perhaps 1 or 2 hours a day. They want at least reach one level per day, better more. To reach level 110 this should be possible to manage in 2 hours, not in 2 days playing 6-8 hours the day.
« Last Edit: 24, November 2021, 01:49:55 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #3 on: 24, November 2021, 12:43:06 »
Leveling isn't that hard if you know the right places to do it in. I find I can relatively easily do several levels per hour if you target mobs that give good XP. For example the treants outside iluma at lvl 15 will give you 200 to 300k XP iirc and are easy to kill with firestorm. So you'll end up gaining a level every 5 or 6 kills and that will take you all the way to level 30ish.

Although even if we put leveling speed aside you end up with a fundamental problem that applies in all games. If you speed up progression then players will reach the end faster and run out of content so to make it possible to reach level 110 in 2 hours means people are likely to only play for a day or two and then say they've completed the game.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #4 on: 24, November 2021, 13:43:01 »
We speak of a game currently no players play. So there must be something wrong.

You speak from treants and yeah i am there currently, i am level 14 now and it's feel like pain killing around 10 treants for one point exp, so it's about 100 treants to kill to go to level 15.

Also think later of more players in game and best place to level is treants? I remember i was often forced to level at other places then best places because of other players.

You also speak from a mage class with the level 15 firestorm. So what the other classes do? Or should this be a mage only game?

Leveling is a pain without firestorm and good places to level.

Dismount and look the things like a pawn. Start a new char and see the presence, not the past.

The level curve was good in past, but currently game has only one player at europe day times. And you say it's all good without playing the game in this level stage?

It's easy to talk with level 110 and a playing time of month, years to reach that? You defend a dead game. A lost battle. Like a King sitting in his castle, all is burning around him saying. "This is my castle." It collapse, but it's mine, don't change anything.  :o
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #5 on: 24, November 2021, 18:10:11 »
I'll just clarify that treants don't give 1 exp so it sounds like a lot of what you're saying is exaggerated. I have actually started several new characters and got them to lvl 110 pretty quickly and it is a lot easier than in the old days when I first played since respawn times are a lot faster and food can instantly recover mana etc.

As far as player numbers go classic approach to getting users to play regularly is things like a daily login bonus with additional rewards for consecutive days and additional rewards for time spent in game etc that is usually done in games focusing on DAUs and MAUs. You then tailor in game features so that certain things can only be done once a day forcing users to login on multiple days. That's quite similar to mobile games and their monetisation policies.

The reality is that Daimonin is a game that is around 20+ years old, has close to zero funding with all dev work being done on a voluntary basis. So new users are likely to be attracted to newer games that advertise more heavily or play games on consoles like xbox, playstation or switch that have more modern graphics and higher production values. The first version of Unreal Engine available for free was released in 2009 with Unreal Engine 4 being available for free in 2015 while Unity was first released in 2005. So technologically speaking there is a big gap and it grows ever larger. If making leveling ultra easy would fix all these flaws then it would be great but the reality is that if you want to substantially increase userbase you would probably need to remake the game from the ground up using a more modern engine, then redo all the maps, get new graphics for every single mob and then undergo an extensive advertising campaign to attract players. It's quite possible that you would need to spend half a million.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #6 on: 24, November 2021, 18:20:42 »
I'll just clarify that treants don't give 1 exp ...
lol i know that this would happen. I have said 1 point exp, yeah, but i meaned client shows exp in line and points. A full line you gain a point, 10 points your reach the next level. So it's not nonsense.
Currently you need about 100 treants from level 14 to level 15. At this state most treants are blue, one treant is yellow. You need about 10 treants to gain a next point on the scala.

And to your other statement. As i said before. You are sitting in a burning castle and saying, all is fine, that's life. We can't change this. But we can. It's only the question, if we want it. I mean if devs want this. And of course if devs have still the time to do this.
 
« Last Edit: 24, November 2021, 18:31:44 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #7 on: 24, November 2021, 19:44:26 »
I just tested it at lvl 16 and you get:

137693 XP for a Quickwood
178993 XP for a Evil Treant

XP required to reach lvl 17 is 2100000

So that means it is around 11.7 Evil Treants or 15.25 Quickwoods or something in between if you kill a mixture. It took me around 30 seconds to a minute per kill so 2 to 3 levels per hour is perfectly doable. Also note that character I used was using throwing instead of Firestorm that has lower damage and is harder to aim. I'll also add that if you're wanting to gain XP killing purple mobs or red mobs is pretty much essential and treants I referred to are purple so I've no idea what you were fighting
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #8 on: 24, November 2021, 20:04:10 »
Then we live in different worlds.

I have currentlly 4313298 xp on my magic skill (level 14 + 4 points).
Killed one treant, treant was blue.
I got 8770 exp. That's about 10% to fill one point and 1% to make it to the next level.
I also noticed my magic skills and magic device skills are sorted in category physiques?

Have you tried really a new char? Perhaps there is something wrong on init code for new chars?
My char is a male elf.
« Last Edit: 24, November 2021, 20:06:45 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Dolfo

« Reply #9 on: 24, November 2021, 20:16:23 »
Yeah, it looks like a bug. But not in char creation. All my chars are incorrect sorted. Also my 2 old characters.
Here is an example of Dolfo

Physique:
  Magic Devices
  Wizadry Spells
Person:
  Slash
  Two-Handed Mastery
  Polearm Mastery
  Punching
Magic:
  Literacy

So i gain massiv exp reduction cause my magic attack skill is in physiques and my current physiques on that char is 5?
« Last Edit: 24, November 2021, 20:18:54 by Dolfo »
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

Shroud

« Reply #10 on: 24, November 2021, 20:48:47 »
You have no XP reduction, you're simply killing the wrong enemies. Ones I kill are lvl 63 treants that you can kill with skill and ranged attacks without taking a single hit e.g.



XP scales along risk/reward ratio. Purple > Red > Orange > Yellow = You > Blue > Green > Grey

So the reason you get low XP is you're killing mobs that are well below your level.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #11 on: 24, November 2021, 21:05:12 »
Wow you really mean new players must level on level 63 treants? Lol. And nice if you can stand there without monsters attacking you. Damn i can't keep sitting on my chair. Yes game has really a problem.

You use a kind of game glitch logic to bypass the slow level system at some very rar places with distance and then say, level system is ok? And again you focus classes. I wanna see you train your physics with a new char there.

No no leveling is a pain, if you don't use this glitch. That's stupid to level there on level 63 treants. It's more a kind of cheating then playing. That sucks. Don't think i can't do this, but that's sucks. It's totally broken and unbalanced.

I try to make the game more balanced for new players. I keep trying.
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

_people_

« Reply #12 on: 24, November 2021, 21:26:57 »
Yeah, it looks like a bug. But not in char creation. All my chars are incorrect sorted. Also my 2 old characters.
Here is an example of Dolfo

Physique:
  Magic Devices
  Wizadry Spells
Person:
  Slash
  Two-Handed Mastery
  Polearm Mastery
  Punching
Magic:
  Literacy

So i gain massiv exp reduction cause my magic attack skill is in physiques and my current physiques on that char is 5?

AFAIK this is purely a display bug. Skills are correctly sorted on the server.

I agree on the point that hit-and-run shouldn't be as important as it is for melee characters. Perhaps a manual attack system like you described in another post would be a good solution, but it isn't a complete solution. I've wanted for some time to expand the skillset PH characters have so it isn't "stand there and wait for the enemy to die, then target another".

Unfortunately our graphical engine isn't particularly well-suited for adding fancy skills like AoE for melee. Think of a "spin around with an axe and hit everything within 1 tile" - as the engine currently exists, I think it would require some pretty big changes to accomplish visual effects for that. The server-side is easy, but our client is obsolete (SDL 1.2 isn't even supported anymore). And you've seen our code - a lot of it is very difficult to work with because it's been maintained by dozens of different people over the last 30 years.

« Last Edit: 24, November 2021, 21:33:09 by _people_ »
-- _people_ :)

Shroud

« Reply #13 on: 24, November 2021, 21:34:16 »
And nice if you can stand there without monsters attacking you.
Actually these mobs are non-aggressive by default, so until you attack them they won't move or attack you.

Actually there are plenty of places where you can train, I just gave one for lvl 13-14 that was easy to access. I'm unsure why you're so obsessed about me "focusing on classes" as at first you complained I was giving a mage only solution so I then demonstrate it with another skill and now you're obsessed on physics(melee?). Melee is actually very strong in the late game but in the early game it's not that strong hence why starting off as a mage is recommended.

I'll also add that it's not a glitch and merely how the XP system works. The higher the level of the enemy you kill the more XP you get so it's logical to aim to kill the strongest enemy you can take down. It's like currency where you don't count the number of coins but the value of the coins.

I guess since you're not able to kill them it will be slower but even targeting red mobs and lower level purple mobs should give you a lot more XP than blue mobs you're currently killing. Normally when XP drops it's a sign that you should start fighting stronger enemies. I'll note that even at level 110 I'll normally fight red and purple mobs that are stronger than the level cap.

It seems like you misunderstand the gameplay and assume that the way to play is to have strong melee skills, walk up to an enemy and wait until you automatically kill them. That works quite well for weaker enemies but against stronger enemies you'll be one who dies. A skilled player aims to take down enemies whilst taking the least damage possible and that is ideal you should aim towards as taking damage also damages your equipment etc as well as putting your life in danger. Actually practising with treants lets players learn invaluable skills that will serve them later on in the game. I suspect that even if you had a lvl 110 character you wouldn't be able to get very far in the stronger dungeons due to a lack of skill and would then blame something else.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Dolfo

« Reply #14 on: 24, November 2021, 22:04:34 »
Yeah i have looked also in your client code. It's powerfull code indead, but also sometimes very ugly and old code. I currently work on my own project with SDL2. I try to rebuild my small "Engine-X". Currently it's more a class. And i am currently working in C++. That's hard for me. Last time i programmed, this was on C#. Now my environment is c++ mingw and sdl2. My goals are also crosscompiling later. But currently i study sdl2 features. I try to make a kind of api over the sdl api, to help me. I finished all the window modes on my XWindow Class, so i can switch full screen, desktop fullscreen, maximized window or change window size on running prozess.

This is really a problem, if you try to use desktopfullscreen you need to manage the scaling alone.
Another problem on sdl2 is, if you use the hardware render, compatiblity goes down, for exampfe there are texture count limits on older grafik cards, or textures are limited by size or a rendertarget command is not surported.

Because of that shit i decided to make my XClass Api more complexity.
I design different render logics
I go from:
software render-direct window
software render-with a back worksreen surface
software render-with a back software workscreen surface to texture to hardware renderer
here i have a hybridmode i can build software working first, switch to hardware render and finish
I also wanna try hardware render with a "hardware" texture surface.
And the final discipline building a texture atlas and render from there.
I "lost" some days playing daimonin and arguing in forum, but tomorrow i will focus more my XWindow Class.

I need to manage the scaling and blit/copy sdl-commands for all my supported modes.
Then i have fast rendering and fall back rendering logics in one class.
Don't believe the shit, you hear in mainstream. Believe your own body. You body is speaking always the true to you. But you need to understand your body. Hear to your body, not to your ego. And when body is calling to you: "Hey something is wrong!" find the reason(s) for that. School medicine don't go for that, they don't want to heal you. They want earn money and sell you medicine, you should take rest of you life. School medicine is corrupted by bad humans, like politician, like media.

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