Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

Author Topic:  Infinate Fanrir's ring  (Read 3465 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

myths

« on: 22, July 2016, 12:30:39 »
On dev ( may be on Main as well ) it is possible to get many of Fanrir's +.3 damage ring. They are given to new characters at game start and can be equiped at level 5.
I was not happy with Myths on dev as a human and so at level 5 deleted her and made her an elf. I kept the ring thinking it would be flagged since a character named Myths was already given it and I didn't want to be without this ring at game start. 
To my surprise I got another ring and was able to equip the old one (once I got to level 5) for now  +.6 damage. The ring is valued at 5 silver and with my Cha at 12 I was able to sell it at 2 silver 87 copper.
I was able to repeat the above for a third ring. All the time only using Myths and not an Alt.
Myths
My retirement approaches...like the Grim Reaper

smacky

« Reply #1 on: 22, July 2016, 12:30:39 »
I don't understand how you deleted old Myths but kept the old ring.

Unless you dropped the old ring somewhere then logged out and deleted old Myths/created new Myths and logged back in and retrieved the old ring.

smacky

« Reply #2 on: 22, July 2016, 12:30:39 »
No reply in almost a year...  ???

Well anyway, this is a problem with the basic idea of multiple characters.

What you've done, sort of inadvertently, is a form of alt trickery -- covered (not explicitly) by GR 2e. Not faulting you in any way -- you reported it as a bug after all. So now future violations can also be dealt with under GR 1b :)

But the basic problem is that you've passed an item from one alt to another. The item is intended to be a once-per-character special quest reward, but because you passed the first instance to a new char, that char can now get her own (now 2nd) instance. Repeat process to get 3rd, 4th, etc.

Ultimately there's no  way round it. We can reduce the likelihood of players doing this though. Firstly, don't have such nice quest rewards so early in the game. It takes about 5 mins to get this far so such a quick and easy exploit will happen. Secondly, the ring is ego bindable, but this system has weaknesses: binding only restricts to a char name -- so delete the old char, create a new one of the same name; and the ring is not even bound anyway until the player chooses.

We should give each player a unique tag (may happen already in fact) which is then bound to the item as well as the name. This prevents bound items being passed to same name alts. Also bind the reward in the script rather than allowing the player to do it when she likes.

Again, there's no way to prevent this entirely, juat make it difficult/unattractive enough that no-one bothers. Except someone will always bother.

smacky

« Reply #3 on: 22, July 2016, 12:40:39 »
A very simple immediate solution occurred to me the moment I turned off the computer last night. Make the ring no drop.

Generally I am not a fan of no drop items but it would seem to solve the problem. No drop handling (specifically for keys) was sorted out in 0.10.7 so it should be fine here too.  course it does mean you cannot sell the ring either.

But the points in my last post are still valid too.

Shroud

« Reply #4 on: 22, July 2016, 19:11:42 »
Well I'll give a few thoughts on it since it's been resurrected that late.

1. Fanrir's ring isn't that powerful or useful. While at low levels it could be useful later on it's junk.
2. Actually way I look at it I'd say it's not a bug. I'd assume you do a quest and receive a reward so it's not an item coming out of nowhere but doing a task and being paid for it. There could be an issue of reward being too high for level but this isn't one of these cases.
3. One-drop items imo shouldn't be extended and isn't something that should be encouraged. On a more sadistic note what are chances that a noob will accidentally drop their "valuable" fanrir ring and then ragequit when their precious item is permanently gone. Extra bonus points for fact "e"xamine and "d"rop are one key away on a qwerty keyboard ;)
4. Actually Fanrir's ring egobind method is a stupid way to do it. I've got at least half a dozen unego'd rings I never use that I usually give to noobs. It's crazy to go to length of deleting a character to reuse ego.
5. If doing it for the money then I can easily get 3s in a few seconds killing a mob...

Just as a general note at the end but I would generally say that the more restrictions an item/reward has the less valuable it is and thus the less likely it's to be used. For example I generally never use egobound items unless unavoidable for simple reason that once I upgrade it then item is trash while others can be transferred. No-drop items just clog up my inventory and take weight.

As an aside I don't consider it to be alt trickery anymore than it would be alt trickery to give an alt an item you got from your main character or vice versa. If someone completes a quest and gets a freely tradable item (e.g. fanrir's ring) they're free to use it themselves, trade it to another player, sell it to shop or use it on an alt. The only potential exploit is the egobind working on a resurrected character although rules state gain an advantage and it's questionable if there is much of an advantage deleting your character.

To play devil's advocate I'll ask following question. If I have 2 characters I'll name A & B. If char A is wearing a dam+0.3 ring and then completes Fanrir quest and gets Fanrir's ring (dam+0.3). Is it my understanding that if char A replaces his dam+0.3 ring with Fanrir's ring and gives his dam+0.3 to char B it is not alt trickery but if on the other hand he gives char B his freely tradable Fanrir's ring directly then despite them having identical stats and no difference in effect it would be alt trickery?
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

smacky

« Reply #5 on: 23, July 2016, 17:00:49 »
OK thanks. Good points.

I completely agree about no drop items. They are a pain, even now that they've been 'fixed'. There are less intrusive if less obvious ways of achieving this -- eg, use datastores or marker sys objects rather than physical keys -- but the idea I suppose is to grant access to a specific player in a way that cannot be passed on to anyone else. Tell me if I did this: IMO because keys are no drop they should be weight 0. The old code couldn't handle weight 0 pickable items. 0.10.7 fixed this. Did I make keys weight 0 though?

I call it alt trickery because, similarly to keys, quest rewards are only meant to be available as rewards for completing the specific quest. Which in most cases is a one-time thing. Of course within that there's free trade as you say. But exploiting a weakness in the system to build up a stock of quest rewards in an alt is not event trade, free or otherwise. Moreso when you're also exploiting a weakness in the ego system. I take your point that this particular case is not a big deal though.

While I agree that Fanrir's ring as ego item is a bit pointless per se, the idea is (or should be, dunno how its been handled) to teach noobs about the concept of ego items. That's the point of Fanrir -- to teach the basics of gameplay to new players but as part of normal gameplay rather than having a tutorial.

Shroud

« Reply #6 on: 23, July 2016, 20:21:47 »
Actually there are some quests where they give an ego item already bound (e.g. Amulet of Anon in hallo maps) although in many cases considering it's inferior to current equip it automatically transforms into junk. I wish there was a de-ego option since I've always assumed main point of egobinding was so you could show off and drop your item safe in knowledge no one would steal it ;)

When reading your post and comparing it to my mindset I've noticed a slight difference in ownership perspective. I notice you tend to define ownership as something character owns. I tend to view it as more something account owns. So that for example when looking at an item I want to acquire I look for character that's most suitable (I have a warrior, mage, archer etc) and then use that character to get item and pass it to one that needs it. In my experience it's not unusual to see warrior items drop in areas good for mages and mage items drop in areas good for warriors although I guess from your perspective using right character for the job can be seen as alt trickery. I would say line between a quest reward and a special drop is a bit blurred at least when you see steps. For example King Rhun's cloak can be viewed as a quest reward or a special drop. Pretty much in same theme is how I'd like an apt for an account rather than a character as I view account as being owned by same person.

As far as keys go I checked my existing keys and they're all 0.100kg but I don't know if new ones are weightless.

While a little off topic I'd say that potentially issue could also be viewed as fact that quests and rewards aren't always proportionate to each other. To give an example Bolf Bracers require you to kill 1 mob and can be done in 2min, maybe less and you get a strong item (particularly for low levels), on the other hand the special material quest requires you to kill 30 raas and loms that takes a long time even with keys and has a fair risk of death. So you end up with issue where with former being able to repeat would be unbalanced as reward is far too easy and quick. With latter considering effort is roughly equivalent to reward then repeating it is balanced (to a certain extent) where effort to complete quest is comparable to camping an item
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

smacky

« Reply #7 on: 23, July 2016, 22:57:16 »
I'm sure a pay-for-de-egoing service has been discussed before as a money sink, a bit like the seamstress. Perhaps that's actually the way to go rather than tightening up ego security. Or maybe both.

That is interesting. Perhaps also our different views are a reflection of different views of character 'classes'.  But also -- and I may be out oof date here as I haven't looked into it since I first wrote the GR about 10 years ago -- this I think is one reason why most games simply don't allow alts or at least sharing stuff  between alts.

Sounds like I did not change keys (should be a simple arch change which will update almost all keys, existing and new. I'll look into it tomorrow.

Yed, quest balance is not always great. That's an issue with multiple devs over many years not always singing from the same hymn sheet.

Shroud

« Reply #8 on: 24, July 2016, 14:54:26 »
Well for the pay to de-egoing it's certainly something that I'd like as currently I don't use rare items like Ring of Mystique on basis that if I ever needed to trade it to get something I really want I can use it as once I ego it then it's wasted for trades. From what I can gather only potential reason to keep ego is to prevent Bebeniss blessing stacks if single quest per person and passing it along although if multiple blessings can be bought it's pretty much obsolete and blessing isn't even implemented yet.

Well as far as perspectives go classes play a big role in it. For example with guilds that restrict spells it means that for any warrior a mage or priest item is unusable. You've also got issue that if you have a character that has maxed a certain class and you have a spare set of top rate equip for another class and you make a new character it does make sense to use it especially when your main character can't. I'll add a fun fact but if a warrior wants Killrin Warrior Armour it's impossible to get with melee attacks cause Evil Pets reflect melee damage.

As far as sharing between alts actually main issue isn't really game rules but time. For example if game is in such a format where you can automatically do an action or it takes time (e.g. send char mining for x hours to get gold or send char to go training for x hours to get stronger) then there is an obvious incentive to getting stronger on main and then using an alt to farm for gold by performing both actions simultaneously, especially when resets occur. Generally it's more in text based games that it is an issue as actions will be limited by timers or some form of energy/action points. However in games like World of Warcraft transferring gold and items between alts is possible and permitted. Possibly the big issue is whether or not there is a level cap as many players end up in a situation where it is physically impossible for character to get stronger so any time spent on char is wasted and only way to gain more power is to train an alt.

If you assume it takes lvl squared time to gain a lvl to get to lvl 110 it takes 12100 time units to get to 110. If you split it between two chars you get 6050 units for each that gets you to lvl 77 to 78 on each char. If you then assume that lvl 110 drops are 110/78 stronger than lvl 78 drops then it makes sense to focus on one character. However if you hit around 30000 time units situation changes since person with alts has access to more places and now also has lvl 110 chars so equipment weakness penalty is gone along with lower lvl damage. This is basically cause lvl cap limits edge to single char accounts so that if there was no cap when a dual char account got both to 110 the mono char account would be at lvl 155 given same time.
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
14 Replies
4809 Views
Last post 30, November 2008, 17:38:50
by smacky
0 Replies
12104 Views
Last post 02, March 2012, 02:17:32
by _people_
6 Replies
2253 Views
Last post 22, May 2014, 17:05:38
by smacky
6 Replies
2803 Views
Last post 18, September 2016, 23:12:46
by Joe
2 Replies
104 Views
Last post 28, November 2021, 18:33:49
by _people_