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Author Topic: Implementation of Server-side Clans  (Read 436656 times)
smacky
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 09:52:35 pm »

My main point is VOLs are too junior for such authority. It's a GM job.
clobber
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 10:12:59 pm »

Don't upset the VOL!

I would trust them to do it - I just don't believe they need to if however many other people are. Although it may change (hopefully not)/
smacky
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 11:00:15 pm »

Well it's not just me not thinking VOLs are up to it. Although there is some objectivity behind that. VOLs are full VOLs from day 1 on the job, whereas GMs go through some time of VOLhood first.

But also I'm thinking of the ridulousness in past years where players cry foul and rant about abusive VOLs with too much power when something they don't like happens.

Of course that'll still happen with GMs but at least they have a level of seniority and experience to justify their authority.
clobber
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 11:10:02 pm »

Yeah, but unlike a few years ago we have a GM who will give them a kick up the backside and cruel punishment if they do anything like that.
zrubavel
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 12:36:16 am »

tis does raise a separate question though (which we do not need to discuss now, and certainly not on this thread, but just to put it out there) should vols and or gms' be allowed to join clans (that is separate from the issue of dealing with a clan whose leader is awol) as that may create the possibility (or the perception of a possibility) for partisan behavior...
clobber
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 09:02:04 am »

We've always maintained VOLs are players just with extra responsibilities. Why should we punish people for helping mod the game and look after players? VOLs do have extra commands but they are not be allowed to use them for anything other than enforcing game rules.
zrubavel
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 02:40:40 pm »

I agree with that in principle, but if a vol could have a possible role in temporary managing a rival clan that could (even without them wanting to) provide a certain advantage to their own clan.
Also a vol who is very active in their own clan may be seen as partial to that clan, and (perhaps even untruthfully) not be perceived as impartial when issues pertaining to their clan come up. So for example I might be reluctant to submit my issues to a vol who just participated in a clan attack against my clan (particularly if these issues have to do with a vols clan member).
There is sometimes a perception in the community that Vols/GMs are partial to their friends,  and I'm worried that this perception will increase if indeed there are groups that Vols/Gms actively are partial to (even if no abuse of their powers takes place). I guess my real question then is how do we allow Vols to be members of clans (as I think they should) and make sure that they are not perceived as playing favorites?
Torchwood
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 06:31:57 pm »

Interesting points; I guess there are 2 approaches to this question:

- Should the code apply restrictions on what a VOL (or GM, whatever) can / cannot do, in an effort to avoid the potential problems mentioned?  One thing is clear - we MUST have the ability to save a leaderless clan, or get rid of inactive clans.

One approach might be to give VOLs the power to only re-assign the leader, but only to an existing clan member (excluding themselves if they happen to be a member as well).  Of course this isn't foolproof - a VOL can always create an alt account and hijack the clan that way, or a VOL can promote a friend.

A VOL would also need to be able to delete an inactive clan; that one is easier to control - we can set a minimum period of inactivity (few months?).

or

- Are there community-applied rules of behaviour that govern what a VOL can do?  In this case, the server would give the VOL full powers and then log all actions, such that disputes could be investigated properly in the case of complaint.
clobber
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 11:15:07 pm »

I don't believe VOLs should have any commands other than being a regular player as far as clans.

I think Zrub is more concerned with the allegations than the actual acts. But, Zrub, allegations will always exist. You say that they already do. What matters is that the VOL isn't and that we are able to then prove that and if they contine to make the allegations they just get discredited. And if they are true, then as I've stated before, they won't be a VOL for much longer. We have a complaint_dept for complaints etc against a moderator, and when training new VOLs it's made very clear. VOLs are role models. GMs too.
Torchwood
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 02:01:26 pm »

Status update:

I can create clans, and the server can save them to file, and then load them back in again!

Still early days yet though; next step is to add members to clans and remove them.

No bug trapping in the code yet, and in a messy state, so not going to be committing this to /streams any time soon! :D
smacky
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 03:14:30 pm »

Sounds good. Just to be clear, when you make the stream, copy server from trunk at whichever revision you have worked on locally. Then commit just this copying. Then copy your locally modified files to the stream. Then another commit.

This way the log will show your actual changes.

So say you work on r7000. In Linuxese:

Code: [Select]
svn mkdir sf/streams/clans
svn cp -r7000 sf/trunk/server sf/streams/clans/server
svn ci sf # This commit creates the stream
cp -r localserver/src/* sf/streams/clans/server/src # In this example I assume you only modify src files
svn ci sf # This commit is your first set of mods

Basically always commit a svn copy separately from actual changes.
Torchwood
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 07:20:20 pm »


OK - no problem.  That's now done.

I won't commit my first changes until I've done some more basic work, including adding some error checking, etc.  I won't add too much functionality at this stage (just the basic add/remove/save/load clans with add/remove members).  None of the fancy stuff discussed above ...
subaru
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2012, 09:32:30 pm »

Late to the party but a few suggestions from a player point of view. (some were shared above already)

-I think it would be cool to have a abbreviation or some type of clan name next to your actual player name in the gamechat (ie: [CrimsonKnights] Subaru: blahblahimtypingnonsenceingamechatdontpunishmeplease:( ). the clan name could be really long though, so maybe abbreviations like [CM]? then again if the initials of the clan is GM i suppose it would be a bit of a problem.

-As far as the level cap and cost concern, i think level cap should be 40+ with a 50-100g or more cost. The reason i think this is because, at level 7 its really easy to create clans. you could go on a alt and transfer money and get that level very quickly and make 50 new clans. Then we have oversaturization and possible abuse over the names of the clans (such as imitating a clans name, or poking fun at people ect.) if the character account in question gets punished with a ban or something, its no big deal. there level 7 or higher and it took them no time at alll, meaning they can just do it again. At level 40 or higher the player in question has more experience, and at that point probably wants to help the newer players out with the game. For a cost to show that there serious about leading a clan, and the experience to show they will be able to manage one, they could create the clan. Also this way it will limit the amount of random clans not being used for troll purposes.

-VOL and GM's in clans... i believe its essential because clans could be used as a tool to plan out the abuse of a certain player and it needs to be monitored. Maybe that would mean appointing specific vols to focus on monitoring activity, or a GM monitoring logs, but i believe its really important. Id imagine the amount of work im asking everyone to do, but later on in the clans systems life im sure you could imagine the type of abuse that could be done. As said above maybe VOL's shouldnt have total control over what they could do with the clans (like smacky said you dont want people screaming vol abuse over and over) but i do believe Vols should be apart of every guild as a default member. they cant edit or control the clan and clan members cant boot them out either. (maybe having specific vols choosen for this type of work would be best since its hard to just monitor basically and literally everything) Maybe having a system where vols reports on clans through the GM board (i forgot exactly what its called i used to be in it myself) for review would be best. That way a clan doesnt get unjustly or bias'ly abused. Maybe another system where the vol can put a lock on clan activitys while its under investigation such as chat or else could be implemented. I could imagine a bad vol abusing this system but i cant really think of a better alternative right now.

-My last suggestion would be to limit the amount of clans a player is able to join. Back in the day it was fun to be apart of alot of clans (me myself was involved with about 3 or 4 including my own) but it just doesnt seem correct. Clans should be a group of players with the same interests ready to have fun and explore the game together. Clans should be all about the-all for one, one for all motto. being apart of 10 different clans would basically put across the message: yo im totally all up in ur clan homie but im up in yer competitors clan. deal wit it, o n btw ima ditch yer guyz planned activitys to go explore this new dungeon with my other clan because there not newbs like u guys.  [oh look at that, missy tried to insert a funny in her text to make it less boring a failed miserably] Maybe a limit of 2 (or maybe 3) clans would be best. You could be in a main clan, theres 1 spot to make your own clan, and if there was a 3rd a sub clan. If it were up to me i would make it just 1 though, but that might upset the community since back then we could be in more.

yes yes i know, missy is dumb when it comes to coding and stuff, and i know this is probably really really asking alot, but i thought just putting a players opinion out there couldnt hurt :) As smacky and torch was saying, the basic system should be implemented before thinking about all this stuff, but maybe for the future of the clan system, I really do hope these suggestions at least spark a bit of intrigue or interest in applying new systems to this new clan system. sorry for all the text and spelling errors and bad punctuation and almost no use of capital letters but, ehhh missy is just plain lazy today ;)

~missy

Torchwood
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 10:13:12 pm »

Great suggestions - thanks! :)
clobber
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 10:28:43 pm »

Subbity, I like those suggestions and I see your point where I didn't think there was one before. However, I really do not agree with VOLs being a part of every clan. VOLs should be free to join whichever clan they like. They are still players! GMs are able to see clan communication, like they are able to see all channel communication, hence I don't really see the need.

If we restrict VOLs too much, then they won't want to volunteer and help the project. Not to mention, is it worth having to quit your clan just to become a VOL? What if you run one?
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