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Author Topic:  Combat balancing  (Read 341065 times)

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petarkiller

« Reply #105 on: 13, August 2014, 02:36:47 »
I agree about FT treasure list.
Anyway that's how it is, it wouldn't make sense if people in group got better items and more exp...
Firstly you clear area faster, secondly less danger of dying when you group.
And add more items and more exp to that and what do solo players gain?

Yeah there should be more maps like FT that need teaming, but i don't agree about changing currently added items to need it, i mean some places should be like ft, but not strongest items should need teaming up. Solo players should have their benefits, groups have benefits on their own as i already said.
But item sharing is kinda bad in groups, maybe every kill in group should allow player to access all corpses, and to have different corpses for every player in group, so that for example we open one corpse but see different items and can both pick them up.

Shroud

« Reply #106 on: 13, August 2014, 17:56:20 »
I'll note that by better items and more exp I meant for a comparable difficulty level. That means a dungeon that is difficulty level 3 for a solo player could be 1 for a group while a dungeon that is difficulty level 5 for a solo player could be 3 for a group. The comparison is obviously 3 vs 3 in solo vs group scenario (i.e. in both cases players require same strength/skill to complete). If the dungeon you're in is of a higher difficulty level when you disregard group status then obviously better items is natural if you assume quality of items is proportional to difficulty level.

As far as XP goes currently in groups if you have capped all your guild based skills you can't gain any XP from ally kills. In addition if mob is grey to any party member's main skill it won't drop loot even if that person doesn't participate in battle. An example of how groups could be beneficial is if players can manually tweak which skills gain XP in a group. It could even be used as a unique way of training skills like literacy that are otherwise untrainable. With item loot it's also a problem and putting it straight into inventory is problematic for traps and encumberance.

I'm not saying that solo shouldn't be viable and I suppose if you get strong enough a player might be able to solo a "group" dungeon. However if you want people to ever group you need a strong enough incentive. For example FT was enough to encourage people to group but once it was completed cost/benefit ratio meant no one was interested in coming again. If FT had much better loot I'd probably be nagging players to join me there ;)
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

petarkiller

« Reply #107 on: 14, August 2014, 12:34:54 »
I totally agree on that.

Shroud

« Reply #108 on: 16, August 2014, 17:48:38 »
Well thread got a bit derailed so I'll attempt to get it back on track ;)

First of all I think it would be a good idea to clearly link stats to skills

Str - Ph based skills, Secondary Characteric: Carry Limit
Dex - Ag based skills, Secondary Characteric: Speed
Con - Pe based skills, Secondary Characteric: HP
Int - Me based skills (maybe MD should be Me based?), Secondary Characteric: XP gain
Wis - Wi based skills, Secondary Characteric: Grace
Pow - Ma based skills, Secondary Characteric: Mana
Cha - Trade based skills, Secondary Characteric: Affection gain (e.g. NPC, pets etc)

Now in theory you could get a Pe based tank or an Ag based assassin with his evasion etc. Main point is that every stat is potentially useful and that it should be equally viable as regardless of skill damage can be boosted with right stat. Secondary Characteristics are just made up on the spot as I know speed doesn't work etc. Charisma I'm assuming would be used for summoning where potentially you might need to control pet's/enemies so they obey you and don't turn against you etc. I'm unsure how it will be implemented but it's basically something like that. NPC bit is on basis that if NPC code becomes more complex potentially quests/prices etc could only be available depending on how well you get along with them. For example if you do a quest to assassinate Dwarf King under the mountain you shouldn't expect to be on good terms with dwarves. If you do quests to get on good terms with dwarves rewards could be based on cha as far as reputation etc goes although it's not really anything definite planned and more an idea

A second thought I've had for a while that I'll mention is that imo it's abnormal that once you cap 110 in Magical Spells that you somehow become an expert in every spell... even ones you've never used before. Would it be logical for every spell and skill to have an XP level as well as general magecraft. This would mean that let's say I killed a mob with lightning that I would gain XP Lightning and if Lightning happened to be your highest level spell then it would be equal to magical spells. For non-damage skills/spells (e.g. find traps, minor healing, probe etc) it could simply be based on usage and checking it had an effect so every successful use of find traps would give XP, even heal that healed HP (i.e. not full HP) would give XP etc and gradually technique gets stronger. This would also apply to 1h/2h/polearm etc for warriors and potentially even things like shield usage. All "warrior" skills could also be trained to get more powerful so if there's an earthquake hammer attack that can be trained too.

A side effect of that is that it would be possible for non-combat spe****ts to gain levels. For example someone who is a priest who mainly works in groups and heals allies could have minor healing as main skill. It would also mean that if someone primarily works as a craftsman of sorts and forges equipment all the time then blacksmithing or whatever could be their main skill that determines level.

An advantage/drawback is that it would mean players can easily camp drops they can no longer use their main skill on as it would be a lower level skill. It would also increase time people spend training various skills. If a new skill is learnt it would take a while to raise it. I would also suggest that it should be possible to train skills with money assuming it's not higher that highest level like current find/remove traps that would create an additional money sink if cost is set at right level.

Could be all considered junk but could be food for thought ;)
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

smacky

« Reply #109 on: 17, August 2014, 22:27:58 »
Just want to say I really like the general ideas in your last post Shroud. Needs refining obviously but that can wait (at least AFAIAC)..

petarkiller

« Reply #110 on: 20, August 2014, 06:52:06 »
Shroud, your idea is good but the point is some skills are hard to level, and noobs that start daimonin take months to get to 110 in magic, some may even take years if they don't have as much time to spend playing. Your idea is good to players that know the game, but new players will be annoyed by it.
I mean i mainly level magic first because i get firestorm/icestorm/lightning/firebolt/magic bullet and i can easily go for GT with that, but if i had to spend as much time as it would take me now to get to 110 in magic to level these skills, i would need 550 levels.
Maybe level magic in general to 110, but different spells should have caps of 50 some 60, some 40 and so on. The reason to level magic to 110 generally is that you can accept the quest and increases a bit damage to all magic spells, but if you want to level some spell to get it stronger, maybe lightning, you'd have 60 levels to go.

Shroud

« Reply #111 on: 20, August 2014, 18:12:27 »
Well what I put was more a general concept than something specific. For example it's not illogical to assume that Firebolt and Firestorm could share same skill of Fire Spells in which case a noob starting out would simply be a Fire Mage instead of a Mage. As long as they can start out with right skills then it shouldn't be a problem.

General idea with skills growing through usage is that players can use spells/skills/abilities they normally use and they'll grow naturally with user. For example if I go round dungeons and normally use lightning and firestorm then these will be my strongest spells while icestorm that I never use would be relatively weaker. If I want to get faster growth in fire spells and spe****e uniquely in that then I'd get even faster growth in it. In theory things I use should get strong and things I don't use don't improve. Unless a player changes their combat style then it shouldn't change much.

Same principle would apply with weapons as while technically every weapon is slightly different it would make sense to classify them by 1h, 2h and polearm rather than katana mastery.

As far as some skills being hard to level I've never really experienced that much so can't really say. At least for spells I think they're all relatively easy if you go to right place. I did suggest that spells could be trained like traps if people didn't want to grind
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

petarkiller

« Reply #112 on: 21, August 2014, 11:16:15 »
Well before that is added to the game, if it does get added.
I'd prefer to see more spells in general, i know that person is working on tradeskills, but if you'd for example want to be fire mage, and just have firestorm and firebolt, that would be boring in a way.
Well as i said, that would make more possibilities for example what i said earlier, level 40 for fire spells, 40 for ice, 60 for lightning and such, and general 110 magic maybe, so that could all add more damage.
And if you max all elemental spells, you'd get title "Elemental mage" maybe.

Shroud

« Reply #113 on: 21, August 2014, 18:25:30 »
Well a couple of things I'll mention and I'll add that it is just ideas.

Firstly I see no problem in idea that getting a skill to a certain level could unlock passive skills/abilities. For example it's not illogical to imagine that if you get firebolt and firestorm to a high level that you would be slightly more resistant to fire attacks. It also means that depending on difficulty of skill to raise that passive effects could balance it out. For example punch is really hard to train but it could have very strong passive effects.

Secondly I'll also add that with model I've suggested I'd actually like there to be a lot more spells. One of the things that could happen is that you could theoretically learn more powerful spells that require a prior knowledge in a weaker spell of a certain extent aka SKill Trees. More powerful spells would obviously consume more mana and maybe even be less mana efficient.

e.g.
Get Minor Healing to level 50. Let's say it heals 50HP for 10 grace on average. Then you unlock Moderate Healing. You have it at level 1 and it does 50 HP for 20 grace on average. You can keep training Minor healing to 110 and have a cheaper heal at a higher level or train moderate healing that heals more but costs more to use or train both. I hope that makes sense

An additional thing to mention is that in terms of balance that if more powerful spells exist they would be available to both players a mobs. As I've mentioned before it is quite hypothetical but at least this way players won't run out of things to do like they do atm within a few months
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

_people_

« Reply #114 on: 23, August 2014, 23:31:28 »
Changing stats has always been a goal of B5 but we haven't addressed it much. I think now's as good a time as any to look into the matter.

I haven't had much time to work on this stream in the last week or two but that should hopefully change after this week is over.
-- _people_ :)

smacky

« Reply #115 on: 24, August 2014, 12:21:40 »
Coincidentally I'm working on stats in 0.10.7 right now. That is when I say working on I really mean tidying the code which will make it much easier to make the actual changes later on.

smacky

« Reply #116 on: 24, August 2014, 21:57:26 »
Related to what Shroud said above about spell efficiency increasing with practice, the basic idea has been in the code for at least two decades:

Quote
The following adjustments to spell strength are done in the
philosophy that the longer one knows a spell, the better one
should get at it.  So the more experience levels you are above
the minimum for knowing a spell, the more effective it becomes.
most of the following adjustments are for damage only, some are
for turning undead and whatnot.

However the actual code is hideously complicated, inefficient, and inconsistent. I have no idea how much of it actually applies to current Dai spells.

I am not going to mess with the status quo for current 0.10.7 (because it'll take a little time to get it all right and I don't want to encroach too much on this thread's territory).

Shroud

« Reply #117 on: 10, September 2014, 23:30:09 »
Well I figured I might as well give a few other thoughts.

Firstly I'll note that I don't have anything against the concept of skill evolution. For example you could get elementary magic and then when it gets to level 110 you could have option to replace it with intermediate magic that improves power and possibly even diversity of spells. You could have spells that require a certain magic rank and upgrading rank resets it. There's concept at least

Secondly I'll add that imo if a player does an incredible feat it should unlock secret/hidden skills. For example for fun I've made a character called Punchgod who only uses punch. He's not even learnt wizardry spells or divine prayers so can't use any scrolls yet alone any spells. He's not trained Ag and doesn't use a weapon. It's pure punch. However if I persevere and get him to 110 in punch having trained nothing else wouldn't it be kind of neat to then unlock a lethal punch that reflects difficulty in getting him up that high. For example it could be a form of martial arts that has a very high attack speed and all the latent talent in prayers and spells is converted into elemental/divine damage in fists. I'll add that ideally skill tree should be extensive enough so there are lots of secret skills and that doing odd/weird things can unlock things

e.g. Never killing a mob - Ultimate support class
Not dying once till 110
Killing a tough boss at a really low level
Clearing certain dungeons/killing certain mobs
Monoskilling
Maxing multiple skills
Gaining certain amount of gold/resources etc
Completing a certain amount of quests

Those are just a few examples but it could be interesting. It could also be combined with classes/secret guilds.

A last thought is that magic/prayers could be tweaked if appropriate. What I was thinking if that spells could be manually tweaked so you can increase the spell power by X times and then mana consumption is increased by X^2
e.g.
Magic Bullet default = 10 dmg, 4 mana
Magic Bullet double = 20 dmg, 16 mana
Magic Bullet quad = 40 dmg, 64 mana
Magic bullet half = 5 dmg, 2 mana

Unsure how it would work but it could potentially allow mages to tweak power vs efficiency
Doesn't matter, you'd die anyway. ;D Shroud's a hacker. After many hours of deep thought I have came to that conclusion.

_people_

« Reply #118 on: 11, September 2014, 15:38:12 »
ATM I need to figure out what to work on next. There are a lot of vague ideas here that could be implemented, but I need a community decision on which aspect of CB to work on next so that we can work on details and I can start working on code.
-- _people_ :)

clobber

« Reply #119 on: 11, September 2014, 17:08:47 »
I think adding a few more skills for warriors would be a good start to get them a bit more appealing.

I really intend to do some Guild work. But our guilds are pretty much just fancy classes right now, so it follows that vein. I've found that Mages have more spells to learn. I've added remove paralysis for priests already, so that's a little bit more level, but I do think warriors could do with a couple more.

I think dual wielding of 1h weapons would be the way foward with this. If dual wielding, it would eliminate the ability to wear a shield (as with a 2h weapon). I think then it would *slightly* increase attack speed compared to 2H, but slower than 1H.

And then referring back to your original post, you talk about making minor combat more useful. I think that would work as part of this so that punch and range are improved and more functional/on par with other skills.

I also wonder about re-implementing 'pray' as an addition to rest for priests. I feel once that warriors are buffed, they and priests will be running the show.
Posted by Clobber

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